[POLL] Game Restrictions & Separated Voting

[chacusha]

Because the other post has veritably exploded over this issue, I'm making a new post to (1) clarify the specifics of this rule change, (2) elaborate on a new proposal that was raised in the other post, and (3) specify certain TYPES of challenge restrictions and have people vote on those.


Clearing stuff up about the proposal on game restrictions:

1. Is this for fic contests, art, graphics? What type of contests are up for debate?
ONLY fic contests. In fact let's make this more specific and say short fic (half-month) contests. People seemed to generally agree that an occasional game restriction on graphical contests is fine because you don't need to be familiar with the subject to make an icon for it (and in fact we have done an icontest like this in the past). Fic contests are, however, shakier because unfamiliarity with the eligible game(s) means you're unable to participate (unless you do, like, crazy research and/or just hope people don't notice you've never played the game you're writing fic for). I don't see there being any game restrictions on art challenges because there are not nearly enough art contests to justify this.

2. What do you mean by "occasional" game restrictions?
I'm talking one or two fic contests a game. And by that I mean, most likely, there would be one fic contest with a game restriction, and that could potentially be preceded, followed, or accompanied by a sister contest with the opposite game restriction. For example, in a month there might be a fic challenge where you can't use FF10, 12, or 13. The next fic challenge after that might be an FF10/12/13-centric challenge, or there may not be a complementary challenge at all. So by "occasional" I mean that there is a possibility of them happening. What I'm not talking about is game restrictions being the default for fic or happening most of the time.

3. What type of game restrictions are we talking about here?
Any you can think of. Because people might be okay with some restrictions and not others, and therefore it's not really fair/productive to talk about them generally, I've separated them out into different poll questions below.

4. Why is this being proposed?
For various reasons, the main ones I think being convenience to voters and fairness. Convenience to voters in that they don't have to compare fic from games they're familiar with to game that they're not familiar with, and that they can use the same criteria for voting. They can vote for technical ability, execution, flow, etc. for games they're not familiar with, and vote for the above-listed technical criteria, plus characterization, interesting concept, connections to the story/themes of a game, etc. for games they ARE familiar with. Fairness in that there is a voting where obscure games (which maybe 5-30% of the community knows) can compete against other obscure games, instead of against highly well-known games (that maybe 50-75% of the community knows)

5. What are the main issues with this?
The main issue seems to be that restricting games would cause people to be unable to participate in all writing contests. This means the number of entries on the restricted contest would take a hit. Issues were also raised that the proposed game restrictions would be unhelpful unless they were made extremely restrictive (for example, a too-loose grouping of games would mean that a person is STILL faced with a voting post where they know some games and are unfamiliar with others). Another point raised in response to fairness concerns is that authors who submit fic for obscure games are already aware that they'll get fewer votes, and are okay with that.

So in summary, the arguments for tend to be from a voting/mod perspective. Arguments against tend to be from a writer perspective.

6. Do popular entries really win more?
There isn't a lot of data, but I went ahead and did some number crunching on sunflower_mynah's data, and from the sample we have, yes they win more but keep in mind that this may be dependent on the particular people competing, and also we don't have a lot of entries for obscure games, which skews the results.

Popularity Tier*	Fic Only Stats					All Stats
	# of Awards	# of Entries	% of Entries that Win	Share of Total Entries	Share of Awards	Number of Awards	Number of Entries	% of Entries that Win	Share of Total Entries	Share of Awards
POPULAR: X/VII/VIII/XIII/VII(CC)/XII	19	44	43%	59% of entries	70% of awards	25	56	45%	60% of entries	69% of awards
MIDDLE: IX/IV/Dissidia/Tactics/X-2/VI	7	23	30%	31% of entries	26% of awards	9	28	32%	30% of entries	25% of awards
OBSCURE: TA/III/VII(DoC)/V/IV(TAY)/CC/XI	1	7	14%	9% of entries	4% of awards	2	9	22%	10% of entries	6% of awards

* Determined roughly by looking at thedrowned's poll results, although I'm having difficulty determining which tier XII and IX should belong to

So yes, the most popular games do win a higher percentage of the awards compared to how many are entered. I have no idea if this is statistically significant or whatever. Don't look at me!



Finally, there was an idea proposed that I'd like to keep distinct from game restrictions, since the concept is a bit different. Let's call it "separated voting".

Idea #1: GAME RESTRICTIONS (original idea)
For this idea we're talking about occasionally putting restrictions on what games can be submitted to short fic contests. This means that there will be limitations on what games you could write fic for. I'm being intentionally vague because there are just so many ways to limit games that they have to be discussed separately.

Idea #2: SEPARATED VOTING (suggested separately here and here)
In contrast to the idea above, for this one, an occasional fic contest would allow multiple entries and then divide the entries received based on how well-known or obscure they are. For example, you might be able to submit TWO entries of whatever subject you like. When the mod collects the entries they might separate them into multiple voting sections based on how well-known the fic's game is.



Okay hopefully that clears everything up so we're on the same page. With all that info in mind, here are the polls.

NOTE: The following scenarios wouldn't all happen in one game. Take each one separately as something that can potentially happen in Game 2.

[Poll #1744693]

Form for a comment vote:
PROPOSAL 5A: No game restrictions or separated voting for fic contests? [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference PROPOSAL 5B: Occasional fic challenge with separated voting? [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference PROPOSAL 5C: In general, would you like an occasional fic challenge with game restrictions? [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference PROPOSAL 5C-1: (ONE CHALLENGE, TWO ENTRIES) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-2: (ONE CHALLENGE, THREE ENTRIES) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-3: (POPULAR CHALLENGE, OBSCURE CHALLENGE) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-4: (OBSCURE GAMES ONLY) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-5: (ONE CHALLENGE, TWO ENTRIES -- DIFFERENT CLASSIFICATION) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-6: (POPULAR CHALLENGE, OBSCURE CHALLENGE -- DIFFERENT CLASSIFICATION) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-7: (OBSCURE GAMES ONLY -- LESS STRICT) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-8: (IT HAD ITS TURN) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe with a different game [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-9: (ANYTHING BUT THAT GAME) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe with a different game [ ] No preference [ ] Depends PROPOSAL 5C-10: (LET'S FOCUS ON...) [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe with a different game [ ] No preference [ ] Depends

Comments

VOTING THREAD

[chacusha]

Reply here if you're doing a comment vote.

[lightofeilia.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for doing this. I realize it's a lot of trouble and I feel bad. I'm willing to go quietly after this poll lol.

[thedrowned.livejournal.com]

I believe placing IX and XII into the "middle" category may work out. They seem to be well-known but are underplayed.

[chacusha]

That was my first instinct as well. It's kind of funny because XII seems more known/played but not so well-loved, while IX is kind of similar to VI and Tactics in that not as many people have played it but almost everyone who has lists it as their favorite. :P

[thedrowned.livejournal.com]

I pity them because they are rather nice and underrated by a great deal of people.

By the way, uncalled for question is uncalled for, will you be filling out the Chocobo Meme (http://airship-lounge.livejournal.com/26127.html) when you have an opportunity?

[chacusha]

I'll fill it out quickly but it is my bedtime now!

[lumati.livejournal.com]

I will admit to being slightly biased as the only games I actually know all that well are VIII, XIII, and Revenant Wings (And to a lesser degree XII proper).

That said, I personally find all this talk rather uncomfortable, because for a large part of those options up there? I couldn't participate because I don't know anything about the games. Which, as someone who likes to write and tends to do the writing challenges when I have the time? That really, really bothers me.

If it's just the voting well then I voted for games that I'm not familiar with during the last game because I either enjoyed the story/found it well written/etc. Yes, even over fics from the games I am more familiar with. So I'm not really sure what the problem is that lead to all of this? I just know that I don't really like it.

I can understand wanting fairness, but fairness at the risk of excluding others just doesn't seem very fair at all.

That said... I really should have gone to bed hours ago. So I'll probably head that way now before I say something that I regret more than I'll likely regret having made this comment later.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

Aw, I don't think you should feel any regret over this comment! Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and concerns when it comes to subjects like this because it will effect the entire comm. And truthfully, I do share many of your thoughts on this.

I have a similar fear that a lot of those options are going to limit participation (I know for a few of them at least I probably wouldn't be able to participate either), and I'm not really liking that it's become this big of a powder-keg issue either...but I think all member concerns should be addressed since everyone has valid opinions on what they'd like to see in the comm--and this will definitely do that. Hopefully it will help the comm in the long run. ♥

[zerrat.livejournal.com]

Wow, I gotta say, a lot of those options are needlessly complicated. I'd honestly think twice about participating if I had to jump through all those hoops, and instead would focus my energy in moogle_workshop. At least then it's straightforward.

Well, I'd probably write a few just because if I'm a Monk moderator, I should lead by example if I'm going to ask my teammates to also participate by submitting work. Genuine hypocrisy is not a good colour on me, I'm afraid.

It's just... the urge to participate kinda dwindled when faced with a lot of those options. If we're trying to encourage participation in these challenges (since writing tends to be on the low side unless it's limericks or very short stuff) and we're trying to get new members involved next game, how is this slew of 'if you do X, you can't do Y' look to them? /exaggeration. At the beginning, if the rules were like some of the above, I probably would not have participated for fear of doing it wrong.

I understand the issue. Context can be huge! But I feel that in trying to fix this one, a whole host of other ones will crop up.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

I tended to hit "It depends on additional factors" quite a bit for a few of the very complicated ones that I wasn't as opposed to, but I can definitely understand what you mean. All of the discussion on this has really kind of churned my stomach a bit because it's so rule-heavy and complicated (I like writing what I like, be it from a popular game or an obscure)...and considering how I'm not very confident with my fan fic writing in general and I really just enjoyed submitting to the fan fic contests what story I got an idea for and having fun with it--this is actually making me debate whether or not I'd feel as comfortable participating in Round 2 as much (at least submission-wise, I might just focus more on MWS writing than challenge writing). I have a feeling if quite a few of these rules had been in place at the start of Round 1, we wouldn't have had even as many submissions as we did...so my fear is that this is probably going to cut back on that in Round 2 as opposed to improving it. I know if I had started out in this comm (especially considering how I wasn't really sure of what to do already since this was my first time in a land comm), I would be horribly overwhelmed and maybe just huddle in a corner with a blankie not doing anything. XD

I can definitely understand the issue, and I understand people's concern that they're not getting the context of certain games (and I did actually vote positively for two options that I feel would be the most fair to everyone in terms of separate voting they also didn't seem quite as complicated either! XD), but I do have a feeling that trying to solve this issue might possibly backfire. I hope it doesn't because I like this comm and I want members to be happy, but I'm already starting to feel a little nervous about submitting next round (haha, maybe because I've written for more of the obscure ones so I feel like I'm sort of partially to blame for this becoming an issue? 0_0;)...hopefully that will go away once everything gets settled and resolved with the majority of members being happy or finding a middle-ground between the two camps. *crosses fingers* ♥

[the-404-error.livejournal.com]

Since I selected "it depends on additional factors" for the ones dealing with exasperating the voting in half depending on the games... I'm not against the idea, but I think it would be difficult with the current levels of participation. If only a two people write obscure fic, you may end up with only two fics in one category and 9 in another.

I sort of do like the idea of having only one challenge for only obscure games, but I do fear about the participation in the case as well. It's probably best to not leave the members who have only played popular games feeling left out, either.

[zerrat.livejournal.com]

I agree with your last point, actually. An obscure-only challenge would be kinda fun, and was the only option I really liked in the above.

[the-404-error.livejournal.com]

*in that case, derp. Me and mornings before coffee do not get along.

Likewise. I think it would give the chance of lesser known games to shine, as they do usually fail to place in comparison... or if they do, it's rarely above third place. (If the popular writers end up writing for those games in such a challenge, it may also shed some more light if this is really a problem.) Though as mentioned, it may leave some members feeling left out, so it isn't entirely fair to them either.

[zerrat.livejournal.com]

Though as mentioned, it may leave some members feeling left out, so it isn't entirely fair to them either.

Yeah, while I like the idea, I am a little iffy about double-standards. I'll just make my stand as "No restrictions - end of" and simply endevour to write more about FFI and FFII.

[the-404-error.livejournal.com]

*nods* In order for that to be fair, there would have to be a challenge with only popular games in return, and then it just seems unnecessary.

This next round, I'm determined to write primarily for lesser known games, given how the number of popular entries last time was nearly double that of middle games. (... and not just IV which isn't too uncommon here anyway, as for the challenges, I submitted 4 to overall writing challenges last time, and two of those were IV. DX)

[cowturtle.livejournal.com]

Especially now that I've looked at the results after voting, this does seem quite complicated... I see that 50% have voted not to have any restrictions or separated voting, but then 50% have voted for separated voting... And then A number of the 5C proposals have a decent number of "for" votes (and a good number have an overwhelming number of "against" votes).

It seems that there are a lot of options and, while that's good and has probably given people a better idea of exactly what they can expect from restrictions/separated voting, I wonder exactly how this is all going to work out. If five different options all gain sufficient "for" votes to be implemented, does that mean they'll all be implemented? Will any of those votes matter of the majority seem to indicate in their first response that they aren't interested in either restrictions OR separated voting?

I feel like maybe this was too many options, especially because people can vote "yes" more than once, resulting in ties or near-ties in a lot of cases. But then, maybe this will open up more discussions...? The numbers just don't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but then I was never very good at Math... :p

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

Truthfully, it seems rather confusing to me as well currently. 0_0; I suppose either the results will be tallied based on how many "yes"'s a certain solution gets: so if one gets more yes choices than another one that has a majority of yes responses...maybe that will be the way it is handled? Or another poll will happen afterwards if it does seem like the separate voting option will take place to see if out of the majority of ideas that have yes that fall into that category there might be more of a clear winner after everything is decided? *is unsure* I guess how that will later be handled will be up to the mods or left to a discussion forum again. It is quite a bit overwhelming at the moment though, I agree! Math and numbers always seem a bit overwhelming to me when there's a ton of them, lolz.

[chacusha]

I know, it's complicated. @__@ But so far from the polls, I'm leaning toward option 5B since it's the one that has the least people saying "no". 5C-5 is also a viable possibility for the same reason. Since they're pretty similar, I think this simplifies my life as far as decision-making goes.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

That's good then! ♥ :)

[glacialphoenix]

About the data: fic data is updated here, for winning entries' placings and authors.

[thedrowned.livejournal.com]

edit Here are the full Tarot data.

http://tin-reality.livejournal.com/8793.html

Scroll to the bottom for bar-graphs.

[northstarroad.livejournal.com]

This is a little intimidating, and I don't feel I helped out any by voting.

I do appreciate and admire the thought and effort that is going into this, but I think that things were fine the way they were for Round 1.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

Aw, I can understand...the poll does seem a bit intimidating just from how many options and different possibilities there are. But I think every vote does help since it will give insight into how every individual member feels on the subject--no worries! *hugs* ♥

I kind of feel the same way about how things were handled in Round 1 too, truthfully...but I suppose at the very least this will help for the members who did feel like there was something that needed to be changed in that regard--and hopefully a solution can be reached that will make most members satisfied about the outcome! *crosses fingers*

Thank you for voting again though...it DOES make a difference! :D