Score Breakdown + Alliances

[arivess.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone~! I hope you enjoyed the results. Here are the score breakdowns courtesy of sunflower_mynah:

SORTING



CONTESTS



FANWORKS



MINIGAMES



GF








SORTING

BLACK MAGES: 22.1% [1st]
DRAGOONS: 11.1% [5th]
MONKS: 9.8% [6th]
SOLDIERS: 16.1% [4th]
THIEVES: 20.9% [2nd]
WHITE MAGES: 20.1% [3rd]

CONTEST (UA)

BLACK MAGES: 20% [2nd]
DRAGOONS: 10.8% [5th]
MONKS: 4.1% [6th]
SOLDIERS: 18.7% [3rd]
THIEVES: 33.8% [1st]
WHITE MAGES: 12.7% [4th]

FANWORKS (MWS)

BLACK MAGES: 8.2% [5th]
DRAGOONS: 6.1% [6th]
MONKS: 12.4% [4th]
SOLDIERS: 28% [1st]
THIEVES: 23.9% [2nd]
WHITE MAGES: 21.5% [3rd]

MINIGAMES (FFMG)

BLACK MAGES: 27.1% [1st]
DRAGOONS: 8.7% [6th]
MONKS: 9.4% [5th]
SOLDIERS: 18.5% [3rd]
THIEVES: 19.4% [2nd]
WHITE MAGES: 16.8% [4th]

GARDEN FESTIVAL (FFES)

BLACK MAGES: 43% [1st]
DRAGOONS: 4.7% [6th]
MONKS: 10.2% [4th]
SOLDIERS: 19.5% [2nd]
THIEVES: 9.3% [5th]
WHITE MAGES: 13.4% [2nd]

And that brings us to our second topic -- alliances. We need to decide them before Game 4 can start, of course. I'll list the strengths and weaknesses of each team (as far as I know them), and a short description of the proposed alliances, and you guys can have a vote.

We're going to do something different this time around. Since we have 4 really strong teams, we've decided it's nearly impossible to have 3 alliances of 2 teams, because one of the alliances will automatically be way stronger than the other two, which kind of makes having a competition pointless. So for this game at least, most of the proposed alliances will be two alliances of 3 competing against each other. Like a final boss fight, I think someone told me.

BLACK MAGES
Strengths: High level of participation in everything (except fanworks this time, it seems), one of the teams with the highest active/semi-active members count
Weaknesses: Not as strong as everyone keeps thinking, as most of their presence is social and just... presence. They're still mainly big in minigames and sorting, although they do win a decent number of contests.

DRAGOONS
Strengths: The few members there are still fairly steady and participate in most things
Weaknesses: There are very few members, and their previously most active member is going to be too busy

MONKS
Strengths: Similar to dragoons, participation, though low, is fairly steady and well-rounded. May have more active members than dragoons, though they didn't answer the feedback poll.
Weaknesses: Again, similarly, there are very few members, and some previously active members will be too busy

SOLDIERS
Strengths: Amazing levels of participation in everything. Their non-MVPs scored about as much as the other teams' MVPs.
Weaknesses: The absolute smallest team. They got to 2nd place through an enormous amount of effort, which would be unfair to force them to uphold, although they probably still will. Problem is, however, while a bigger team can potentially score more, they can't really do too much more than they already have.

THIEVES
Strengths: Generally strong and active team, with mid/high participation from a fair amount of members.
Weaknesses: I am leaving the team, which, if it had happened in game 3, would have put thieves in 3rd place, so... uh. Plus, thieves have mainly iconists. My leaving does leave them with only one writer (I think?), and no artists.

WHITE MAGES
Strengths: A lot of MWS-ing, which isn't restricted by the activities going on.
Weaknesses: Aside from the two MVPs, most other members only participate occasionally, although there are a lot of them. Also, has no really strong iconists to compete in graphics challenges; whole team is mostly writers.

Also, a small analysis of which teams make which types of fanworks. Note that I'm going by regular UA entries here, not MWS, because for MWS, as long as you're making some kind of fanwork, you'd get points, but in UA, if all the people for one type of fanwork goes on one alliance, there isn't much to compete for.

Graphics: Mainly thieves, with a couple black mages and one soldier.
Art: One soldier, one black mage, now, since I'm out?
Writing: Mainly white mages, but with a couple from each team, still.

And with that, the alliance options:

Thief+Soldier+Monk vs. BM+WM+Dragoon: A Thief+Soldier combo might be too strong, plus monks will likely have more active members than dragoons
Thief+Soldier+Dragoon vs. BM+WM+Monk: Slightly more balanced, but Thief+Soldier might still be too strong?
Thief+BM+Monk vs. Soldier+WM+Dragoon: Might actually be fairly balanced. If you take out my score, these three would have been about even for game 3, with S/W/D having slightly more. Problem with this is, Thieves and BMs have almost all the iconists.
Thief+BM+Dragoon vs. Soldier+WM+Monk: Same as previous
Thief+WM+Monk vs. Soldier+BM+Dragoon: Possibly the most balanced? This largely depends on how active the WMs who didn't vote in the poll are, though.
Thief+WM+Dragoon vs. Soldier+BM+Monk: Similar to previous, but I think S/B would have more activity than T/W, so giving Thief/WM the Monks might be a little more balancing
Thief vs. Soldier vs. Black Mage vs. White Mage vs. Dragoon+Monk: I'm most worried about White Mages for this one... The other bigger teams can probably perform about the same, and putting Dragoons and Monks together this game would have given them about the same as White Mages.

And the poll! Which... I hope... posts from here... haha...

[Poll #1837853]

I just tried to post two polls in one post, and it really Did Not Work, so, uh, please see following post regarding stamping question changes.

Comments

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

I think the WMs post in MWS just because they like writing as well (at least, I know that's the case for Yin, lolz!)...I'm definitely not saying that's what you're saying (I thought your comment was very accurate, actually ♥), but Yin and I have both seen comments where people *have* said "Small teams can post things to MWS to make up." and I, as a mod of one of the smaller teams, do have a problem with that mindset...because I personally think it ignores the reality that that's a lot of pressure to put on the few active members of a small team. I do know I submit a lot to MWS because I want to earn points for my team, but I never felt like I "made up" the points that we missed by just not having too many active members. The way things are set up in MWS, you'd have to submit something worth a lot of points to do that...I'm not an artist, and I can't write super long fics nor post super huge icon posts on a really regular basis. There is no way for me to make up those points...I feel like when I see comments like that, I'm personally letting my team down by NOT being able to make up those points. I think we just wanted people to realize how it might come across when people say stuff like that. :/

Looking at the WMs, they're fairly consistent and regular with MWS posting in terms of writing...and they placed fourth in Game 3. I definitely think saying you can "make up" points in MWS is not necessarily true...it does help teams earn *extra* points, but that is not the same thing.

The reality is, with how the sizes of the teams are in terms of active members, there's not going to be a way to make things even for the teams: MWS is not a crutch, nor is UA and minigames. When you have small teams with not very active members, you just have small teams with not very active members. Just as the BMs are saying that Game 3 was anomalous for them...Game 3 was anomalous for Soldiers. We didn't change our participation: the other teams did. I'm not downplaying my team: the few of us who are active participate AWESOMELY and I feel we really earned the place we got in Game 3...but, do I expect it again when the bigger teams start getting more active in general? Not really. We'll give it our best and try our hardest, but that's because that's what we've always done...to the point of possibly even burn out in some cases. We're a strong team despite our lack of members, but do I think we're as strong as the teams with more active members? Not really. I just wanted to get a "small team" perspective out there, since so far I've been seeing more of the representation of the big teams commenting here. ...Yin just wanted to mention some more about WMs so she tagged along, haha. And she felt like she needed to address the MWS thing also since we've kind of been talking about it before. XD

Also, wait, with 2v2 do you mean 2 teams, or 3 teams? /suddenly confused Mysti
~Lolz, we *meant* the "2 Alliance" idea. IDK why we typed it out that way other than lack of sleep. O_o

[glacialphoenix]

Looking at the WMs, they're fairly consistent and regular with MWS posting in terms of writing...and they placed fourth in Game 3. I definitely think saying you can "make up" points in MWS is not necessarily true...it does help teams earn *extra* points, but that is not the same thing.

/nod

I mean, looking at the pattern for MWS, usually when a team successfully keeps afloat via MWS, there's at least one extremely prolific person who tends to post a great deal of fanworks, and each post tends to be worth a lot. (For example, and although I represent the extreme end of the spectrum, I could post several fics in MWS and the total points earned by those fics would simply not match one post from someone else, you know?) So that may be why there's that perception - if you see someone earning a couple hundred points off each post, it's easy to say, woah, holy crap, they CAN make up via MWS - and this is partly true in that it's possible, but it's fallacious to apply it to everyone across the board, because some people just can't. I feel, generally speaking, that MWS does have this tendency to get either overrated or underrated - it's easy to forget someone's there if they only post in MWS and don't really do much else, but having seen the total scores? There are people in ff_land who can claim more points from nothing but MWS than I have this entire game. And I don't participate in UA beyond voting (mostly), but I've participated in almost all the minigames, almost all of GF, and voted on everyone in classchange AND claimed reference bonuses... so that's what you can earn off one community versus near-max for three. At the same time, though, as in the case of the WMs, it's kind of unfair to expect people to do well purely FROM MWS alone, or expect people to be able to 'make up.' (I'm guilty of this, really. Not the making up, but I honestly really did overestimate the WM gain in MWS, mostly because I saw a lot of posts from them in general? I apologise for that.)

And of course MWS activity is the hardest to gauge - it has the possibility of fluctuating insanely. For example, I know ff_exchange is going on right now, and we have people taking part... and it's eligible for points in MWS as well. So if people do decide to post their exchange fic here, that's a lot of points coming in, and that can change the MWS balance quite drastically.

tl;dr that's kind of my thoughts on where MWS stands as a point-giving comm, really.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with what you've written here. ...I'd say more, but I feel like I'd just be repeating a lot of what you said (so, I apologize if this response is lame, lolz). As a point-giving comm, MWS might actually be the most unpredictable...so I never know how I feel about people equating MWS posting to a team's strengths/weaknesses. If anything, I think it might just help showcase an individual's strengths or activity/participation levels: one of our Soldiers really only ever posts in MWS, so that's actually the only reason I know they're still active here since I don't usually see them on any of the other ff_land comms, lolz! XD

[glacialphoenix]

If anything, I think it might just help showcase an individual's strengths or activity/participation levels

Unfortunately, I think that's where the line blurs a bit: an individual's strengths or activity/participation levels are going to reflect back on the team's strengths or activity levels. Black Mages do well in minigames because most individuals in Black Mages happen to like and participate in minigames - and it's made even stronger because we have the numbers to support that kind of participation. It adds up. Similarly, if a team does have constant, regular posting in MWS I would consider it a strength of the team's because regularity is good and it is a constant contributor to the team's points overall. If that makes sense? Whether this is actually sufficient to make it on par with the other teams' activity is something else altogether.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

What you said makes sense, but I think "Whether this is actually sufficient to make it on par with the other teams' activity is something else altogether" is the main issue when it concerns MWS. I think the same can be said for *any* of the point-giving comms to a degree. Like you mentioned with minigames...having several members who like something and submit consistently will always reflect positively on a team's points. When you only have one or two members who consistently do something, you won't always be able to compete against the other teams regardless (which is basically why I say "size of active members" is probably the most significant factor when it comes to discerning a team's strengths: the more people you have submitting something, the more the points add up). Again, it goes to activity/participation levels to a degree. When it concerns teams like WMs, they obviously like submitting to MWS...especially when it comes to writing. It is a strength of theirs, but the points maybe don't add up to what teams that participate more on other point-giving comms might receive, especially if those other teams are also relatively active on MWS as well. For any of the point-giving comms, it really all depends on how many people you have entering or submitting things (obviously, even the bigger teams can drop in activity/points if their members become busy or don't feel like participating as much in certain point-giving comms). I think that's what you're saying, but correct me if I'm wrong? ♥

[glacialphoenix]

Yep, we're on the same page. I think also (seeming) frequency is an issue: I see the White Mages posting a lot, but because of the nature of MWS, they might not be earning as many points as they look like they are? Whereas if you were to see someone consistently participating in something like FFMG, you know they're probably going to earn around the same range of points each time they participate, or if you see someone voting in FFCC, you know they're going to earn 10 points each time they vote. Not disagreeing, just thinking maybe it's where a lot of misperception potential comes from.

[breyzyyin.livejournal.com]

Yes, my thoughts exactly! XD Lolz, I can never word things to make them sound so understandable. I should work on that (or let Yin comment more, since she's better at that kind of thing, haha!). ♥

[arivess.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if anything, bigger teams should generally be expected to score more in MWS than smaller ones, simply because they have more people who can potentially post stuff. Plus, saying people can make up points in MWS is a bit... :\ I know my POV is a little off since I only very sporadically post fanworks, but it's the lowest points to effort ratio in the entire game, and by necessity. In the same amount of time, you get about twice as many points from UA for even just entering, much less winning, and about 3-4 times from MG. In a game with more people in general, then yeah, maybe it's fine to say smaller teams can make up the points with fanworks, but when you have some teams double the size of others, it's a bit misleading and unfair.